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HYDROGEN POWER
mullokintyre
post Posted: Oct 11 2019, 03:57 PM
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In Reply To: nipper's post @ Oct 11 2019, 03:31 PM

As usual, they only tell part of the story.
The so called blue hydrogen from Natural gas is rather energy intensive in that it treats the Natural gas with steam to produce the hydrogen.
Unfortunately it also produces carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide.
So instead of burning the natural gas to produce energy and carbon dioxide, we stick an intermediate step in to produce carbon dioxide.
And of course it is using fossil fuel as its feedstock, a finite non renewable source.
At least in the electrolysis version of the green hydrogen, the raw materials, water is quite abundant, is very renewable, and the byproduct, oxygen is a little more useful and less of a greenhouse gas than CO2.
And of course when hydrogen is "burnt" in the presence of oxygen to release the energy, the byproduct is water, which of course becomes the feedstock again. Simples.
I thought the whole point of these new renewable fuels was to stop using fossil fuels and reduce the CO2.
Mind you, Water vapour itself is a greenhouse gas, but the amount of water vapour in the atmosphere is controlled by its temperature, rather then the other way around.
Still , tit is generally acknowledged that about 60% of global warming is due to water vapour.

Mick





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nipper
post Posted: Oct 11 2019, 03:51 PM
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National Hydrogen Strategy ...
..... at COAG, Dec 2018, the Strategy to be developed by Oct 2019.

Two weeks to go.

https://www.industry.gov.au/news-media/nati...s-have-your-say




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"Every long-term security is nothing more than a claim on some expected future stream of cash that will be delivered into the hands of investors over time. For a given stream of expected future cash payments, the higher the price investors pay today for that stream of cash, the lower the long-term return they will achieve on their investment over time." - Dr John Hussman

"If I had even the slightest grasp upon my own faculties, I would not make essays, I would make decisions." ― Michel de Montaigne
 
nipper
post Posted: Oct 11 2019, 03:31 PM
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Woodside sees large-scale hydrogen output by 2030

QUOTE
Woodside Energy expects that large-scale hydrogen production will occur around the globe by 2030, with Australia needing to invest heavily to be at the forefront of a sector which has similarities with LNG almost four decades ago.

Shaun Gregory, executive vice president of exploration and the chief technology officer at Woodside Energy, said hydrogen currently cost too much compared with other sources of energy, but the potential was vast and rapid advances are being made.

"Things are changing, and changing rapidly,'' Mr Gregory told The Australian Financial Review National Energy Summit.

Australia had abundant resources and was well-positioned to become a major player although heavy investment in infrastructure and capacity is required, along with the right regulatory standards to accelerate the industry. Consumer acceptance also needed to be cultivated. "This is going to take big investment,'' Mr Gregory said.

He said Woodside wanted to be at the forefront of a hydrogen export industry which could one day rival the LNG export industry, which had developed about 40 years ago in Australia.

Darren Miller, the chief executive of the Australian Renewable Energy Agency, said a ''collective effort'' is needed to advance hydrogen as an energy source but its potential is enormous to be a substantial disrupter. "I think hydrogen is going to be the Netflix of energy,'' Mr Miller said.

Australia should aim to eventually become a big export player, while starting off with a robust domestic industry. "We ought to aim for that export opportunity,'' Mr Miller said.

Alison Reeve, Taskforce Leader of the National Hydrogen Strategy, said up to 900 pieces of legislation may need to be altered to allow a hydrogen industry to develop, but the evolution of the industry would come by key players actually doing things. "We do need to learn by doing,'' she said.

Woodside's Mr Gregory said currently ''blue'' hydrogen from natural gas was about one third the cost of ''green'' hydrogen produced by electrolysis, and the cost gap needed to shrink. Mr Gregory cautioned against viewing the development of a hydrogen industry as a race, with a lot of collaboration needed. "Many see hydrogen as a bit of a race, a competition,'' he said.

Woodside has signed an agreement with Korean giant Kogas for a joint study on ''green'' hydrogen, an example of the collaboration required. "The end use customers are vital to every investment decision,'' Mr Gregory said.
https://www.afr.com/companies/energy/woodsi...20191010-p52zg0



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"Every long-term security is nothing more than a claim on some expected future stream of cash that will be delivered into the hands of investors over time. For a given stream of expected future cash payments, the higher the price investors pay today for that stream of cash, the lower the long-term return they will achieve on their investment over time." - Dr John Hussman

"If I had even the slightest grasp upon my own faculties, I would not make essays, I would make decisions." ― Michel de Montaigne

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blacksheep
post Posted: Jul 18 2019, 02:40 PM
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ATCO unveils $3.6m Clean Energy Innovation Hub in Jandakot

Josh Zimmerman
The West Australian
Thursday, 18 July 2019 2:18PM
QUOTE
Renewably produced hydrogen could join natural gas in the stovetops and water heaters of WA homes from as soon as 2030 after ATCO today unveiled a $3.6 million Clean Energy Innovation Hub.

The official launch of the Jandakot facility coincides with the McGowan Government launching a Renewable Hydrogen Fund, designed to position WA as a world leader in the production and export of the environmentally-friendly energy source.

https://thewest.com.au/business/energy/atco...-ng-b881263678z

https://yourgas.com.au/energy-future/clean-...innovation-hub/
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The herd instinct among forecasters makes sheep look like independent thinkers. Edgar Fiedler

If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter. George Washington
 
nipper
post Posted: Jun 27 2019, 04:36 PM
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In Reply To: balance's post @ Jun 27 2019, 02:51 PM

"refuelled using a mobile hydrogen refueller at ... Altona" ... so the current effective range is half the vehicle's total range?



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"Every long-term security is nothing more than a claim on some expected future stream of cash that will be delivered into the hands of investors over time. For a given stream of expected future cash payments, the higher the price investors pay today for that stream of cash, the lower the long-term return they will achieve on their investment over time." - Dr John Hussman

"If I had even the slightest grasp upon my own faculties, I would not make essays, I would make decisions." ― Michel de Montaigne
 
balance
post Posted: Jun 27 2019, 02:51 PM
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In Reply To: nipper's post @ Jun 27 2019, 08:50 AM

Interesting regarding Shell's actions. Toyota are going into H fueled vehicles and they have, or had, a few operating here

https://www.toyota.com.au/news/toyota-austr...ev-loan-program
Separating H from methane, natural gas, water etc presumably is not done without energy inputs so not sure how clean it really is end to end.







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nipper
post Posted: Jun 27 2019, 08:50 AM
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In Reply To: balance's post @ Mar 21 2019, 06:29 AM

QUOTE
may well be electric. I think that will be better established before hydrogen...
- a little nugget I picked up (Shell is having a global gabfest in Sydney this week) is that the company intends to roll out an extra 10,000 service stations worldwide in the near future. I'm not privy to the inner details, but I would take this as an endorsement of the current hydrocarbon economy.

Seeing it has taken more than 100 years to 'refine' the service delivery model, one of the headwinds to a renewable or alternate energy source economy would have to be the sheer cost of new infrastructure, especially at the retail, individual consumer, level. I'd reckon any Hydrogen Power developments would first be bulk, aimed at industrial users.

QUOTE
solar panels on my roof so charge [my] car off that
. And this is another issue - pricing transparency and cross-subsidy. But that's another issue smile.gif




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"Every long-term security is nothing more than a claim on some expected future stream of cash that will be delivered into the hands of investors over time. For a given stream of expected future cash payments, the higher the price investors pay today for that stream of cash, the lower the long-term return they will achieve on their investment over time." - Dr John Hussman

"If I had even the slightest grasp upon my own faculties, I would not make essays, I would make decisions." ― Michel de Montaigne

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blacksheep
post Posted: Jun 26 2019, 10:30 PM
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Australias hydrogen economy – hype or hope?
Last Updated: 25 June 2019
Article by Louise Horrocks, Andrew Bukowski and Michael Roche
extract
QUOTE
The global focus on hydrogen is likely to be elevated as a result of the upcoming G20 meeting in Japan. Before the meeting a report from the International Energy Agency entitled "The future of hydrogen" which sets out some potential quick wins to advance the hydrogen economy.

By the end of 2019 we are going to have government hydrogen strategies aplenty in Australia. These will need coordination and national leadership. At the same time, the States will inevitably try to outcompete each other.

Finkel says the prime opportunity for Australia is the export of hydrogen to Japan and South Korea. This is going to require a serious investment by both governments and private industry. The prize is worth pursuing, but it is not going to replace the value of our thermal coal exports, for example. Nor will we have it all our own way, with competition for hydrogen exports likely to come from Norway, Saudi Arabia and Qatar.

Domestically, we can expect to see a series of FCEV trials supported by car makers like Toyota and Hyundai. Like BEVs, the key will be the availability of fuelling stations. A more likely prospect is the roll-out of hydrogen fuel cell buses, with trials already underway in Europe.

read more - http://www.mondaq.com/australia/x/818660/A...my+Hype+or+Hope

The Future of Hydrogen - Report prepared by the IEA for the G20, Japan
Seizing today’s opportunities
June 2019
Executive summary and recommendations
https://webstore.iea.org/download/summary/2...Hydrogen-ES.pdf





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The herd instinct among forecasters makes sheep look like independent thinkers. Edgar Fiedler

If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter. George Washington

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balance
post Posted: Mar 21 2019, 06:29 AM
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In Reply To: blacksheep's post @ Mar 20 2019, 09:22 PM

It will be interesting to see how the competing technologies are in 10 years time. Electric is well established in several countries, but can see how hydrogen makes sense from a fill and go point of view.

There are some big players backing hydrogen fuel cell cars so I expect competition (and confusion).

I'm thinking there is room for both electric and hydrogen and both can do OK depending on the infrastructure built and assistance provided.

I have about 6kw of solar panels on my roof so charge run a car off that for the vast bulk of city driving. Being home most days helps.
The new Nissan Leaf will get about 270km out of a charge and the Hyundai Kona up around 400km. Range anxiety and the time taken for a full charge will be issues for longer trips.

That said, my next small car may well be electric. I think that will be better established before hydrogen becomes more of a thing here.




--------------------
Day Trader: Lowest form of life in the known universe.
Shorter: Can limbo under a day trader.
Investor: Salt of the Earth.Sits to the right of God (Warren Buffet)
Share prices are only ever manipulated down.
Paper losses are not really losses.
Chat site posters always know better & know more than anyone about anything.
I'm 29.
The cheque is in the mail.

Said 'Thanks' for this post: nipper  blacksheep  
 
blacksheep
post Posted: Mar 20 2019, 09:22 PM
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Firms adding fuel to hydrogen industry drive
By Zheng Xin | China Daily | Updated: 2019-03-20 08:5
QUOTE
As the government has been stepping up efforts to develop the country's hydrogen industry, with the development of hydrogen stations for new energy vehicles being included in the Government Work Report, many domestic companies have been actively pushing forward their hydrogen industry layout.


QUOTE
China had around 1,200 fuel cell vehicles on its roads and fewer than 20 hydrogen fuel stations by the end of 2017, ranking behind the United States, Japan, Germany and South Korea, according to the International Hydrogen Fuel Cell Association.

The Chinese government has set a goal to have 5,000 such vehicles on its roads by 2020, 50,000 by 2025 and 1 million by 2030.

read more - http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201903/20/W...42260b17f1.html



--------------------
The herd instinct among forecasters makes sheep look like independent thinkers. Edgar Fiedler

If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter. George Washington

Said 'Thanks' for this post: nipper  
 
 


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