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Market Auctions, Pre-Open, Notice Received, Closing Auctions, After Hours
arty
post Posted: Jul 10 2009, 02:27 PM
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In Reply To: sirob's post @ Jul 10 2009, 02:04 PM

Yes, Sir: I trade through the Iress platform.
Have been with AOT Online since almost Day One, and when they were taken over by Comsec, the platform and general conditions remained in force. Thank Goodness for that hypocrite.gif

There have been periods in recent times, when clients were accepted to the AOT section. Not sure whether that's possible right now.
You could phone 1300 55 44 44 and ask. They're very friendly and helpful smile.gif



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I trade daily, but I am not a licensed adviser. Whether you find my ideas reasonable or not: The only person responsible for your actions is YOU.
I follow two rules: (1) There are no sacred truths. All assumptions must be critically examined. Arguments from authority are worthless. (2) Whatever is inconsistent with observed facts must be discarded or revised. We must understand the Market as it is and not confuse how it is with how we wish it to be. (inspired by Carl Sagan)

Said 'Thanks' for this post: sirob  
 
sirob
post Posted: Jul 10 2009, 02:04 PM
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In Reply To: arty's post @ Jul 10 2009, 12:42 PM

Thanks for your reply arty, my broker is commsec and when placing an order I have only two options ie good for day or default expiry, I always use default expiry which allows the order to stand for 28 days. As I too keep a close watch on orders I would prefer my orders to remain untill I choose to cancell except when asx purges. In the past I have tried what you suggested by amending the order just prior to the expiry date the order is amened as per my instructions ie price and/ or quantity but no matter what i do the expiry date remains as per the original order. When you say your other account is set to never expire I take it that is the comsec account using iress trading platform, would be interested to hear from you how I can achieve this.

 
arty
post Posted: Jul 10 2009, 12:42 PM
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In Reply To: sirob's post @ Jul 10 2009, 10:57 AM

Does your broker website provide a list of order details? The ones I use (Westpac and Commsec) do.
On the order list, you should find a column showing Expiry Date and Time.

Checking that list daily, if I find an order is still unfilled and close to expiry, I simply amend it and confirm it unchanged.
Westpac will simply update the expiry date, extending it to their default setting. But I will not lose my place in the queue.
(My other account is set to never expire; therefore I can't tell what would happen.)

On certain occasions, however, the ASX will cancel an order. This happens as a matter of course whenever the stock in question enters suspension (not merely a trading halt). I have also had a sell order cancelled when it was considered too far above the current trading range. Not quite sure whether that's a general ASX rule, or whether the broker has an in-house rule that he hides behind "It's all ASX's fault." Doesn't really worry me either way because I keep an eye on open orders.

It's up to us, as clients, to make sure we are notified. With Westpac, I have left instructions to send me an e-mail every time an order is cancelled. Works and arrives within seconds - even for those that I cancel myself online.
Attached File(s)
Attached File  ReviewOrders.gif ( 15.75K ) Number of downloads: 20

 




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I trade daily, but I am not a licensed adviser. Whether you find my ideas reasonable or not: The only person responsible for your actions is YOU.
I follow two rules: (1) There are no sacred truths. All assumptions must be critically examined. Arguments from authority are worthless. (2) Whatever is inconsistent with observed facts must be discarded or revised. We must understand the Market as it is and not confuse how it is with how we wish it to be. (inspired by Carl Sagan)
 
wolverine
post Posted: Jul 10 2009, 11:50 AM
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In Reply To: sirob's post @ Jul 10 2009, 10:57 AM

the rule may be more a limitation by your internet broker rather than any asx rule.

i can stick an order on for as long as i like unless it is purged by the asx such as going ex-div.



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TOO MANY CHIEFS

NOT ENOUGH INDIANS

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sirob
post Posted: Jul 10 2009, 10:57 AM
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Can anyone enlighten me regarding ASX order expired notices. I placed a buy order for HZN @15.5 cents the order hit the expiry date yesterday and the order was cancelled and I lost my place in the order cue. I thought I understood this rule, what I can not understand is that I was on the sixth line from the top of the buy order at this price yet the 5 orders ahead of me have not been cancelled. I assume that the orders ahead of me were placed some time before me therefore would expect that they would have also expired but this not the case. This rule is very annoying when on occasions I have had a partially filled order expire and have to re enter the order to get filled attracting additional brokerage charges. I am not aware of a way of avoiding this situation but somehow the 5 orders that were ahead of me are still there so it would appear that some are able to get around this rule.

 
arty
post Posted: Jun 14 2009, 04:30 PM
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In Reply To: arty's post @ Jun 14 2009, 03:55 PM

On certain days of each month - look here: http://www.asx.com.au/products/pdf/2009.pdf
the Opening and Closing Auctions will be especially "noisy" and confusing.

That is because options expire on those days, and the writers will attempt to "nudge" the motherstock into a position where the exercises benefit them most; usually it is the writers that do the pushing and pulling, because most options are written by institutions, and only they have the financial clout to move the market appreciably in their direction.

On several occasions, I have pointed out that a relationship exists between the distribution of open interest in corresponding options.
Example below showing the May Index options the night before expiry (index options a paid out on next morning's Open value).

Attached File  XJO_OI_late_20_05_09.gif ( 21.85K ) Number of downloads: 21


In order for the XJO to close right in the "sweet spot", where the least amount of Puts and the least amount of Calls had to be paid out, the index constituents were bid up and down in crazy overlaps. Market pictures changed during pre-open at dazzling speeds - and then it all settled down to sedate trading, following which the prevailing trend resumed till it found natural support and rose.

Attached File  XJO_OptEx_May09.gif ( 14.58K ) Number of downloads: 0




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I trade daily, but I am not a licensed adviser. Whether you find my ideas reasonable or not: The only person responsible for your actions is YOU.
I follow two rules: (1) There are no sacred truths. All assumptions must be critically examined. Arguments from authority are worthless. (2) Whatever is inconsistent with observed facts must be discarded or revised. We must understand the Market as it is and not confuse how it is with how we wish it to be. (inspired by Carl Sagan)

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arty
post Posted: Jun 14 2009, 03:55 PM
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In Reply To: arty's post @ Jun 14 2009, 12:36 PM

Market reactions after drill results are often quite obvious. Whether people are Selling the Fact, Buying for a quick scalping, or Raiding automated Stops: the Auction and market action immediately afterwards provide plenty of profit opportunities to the alert trader.

The chart below gives a few pointers to events that I am looking for:
The Opening Auction - aka "Amateur Half Hour" - provides a lead what to expect. Especially when the previous day's Closing Auction created a particular day's candle that gives rise to a certain "expectation". If that expectation is supported by overnight events, a report maybe, or a ramp by one of "the usual suspects" in newspapers or certain nameless Fora... wink.gif For example, Friday's activity through the first 10 minutes offered the chance to make a quick seven or eight cents. The chart shows also another type of trade that I'm looking for: The "bot" trades. They are trades, usually against the trend, where an interested buyer sells down the same - odd, silly-looking - number of shares, hoping to create an impression "This share is being sold down!" When unwary sellers join in and offer lower prices, the other hand will snap them up ... The BTA example only shows one such occasion; in AMP's case, the trades are spread out over a longer time frame, which I cannot properly display here: the full chart would stretch across several monitors; anyway, the subsequent rise and positive Close confirms that's what has been happening.

Attached File  BTA_TradingTicks.gif ( 24.88K ) Number of downloads: 26


Attached File  AMP_tick_12_06_09.gif ( 26.91K ) Number of downloads: 20




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I trade daily, but I am not a licensed adviser. Whether you find my ideas reasonable or not: The only person responsible for your actions is YOU.
I follow two rules: (1) There are no sacred truths. All assumptions must be critically examined. Arguments from authority are worthless. (2) Whatever is inconsistent with observed facts must be discarded or revised. We must understand the Market as it is and not confuse how it is with how we wish it to be. (inspired by Carl Sagan)
 
flower
post Posted: Jun 14 2009, 01:21 PM
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In Reply To: arty's post @ Jun 14 2009, 12:36 PM

And Arty, if one was in a stock that had a dramatic rise the day before
over the years I have found that an ideal time to SELL is into that morning auction.

It seems to be the case that pure punters see a stock suddenly rise dramatically
on a Tuesday say--and presume it can only rise further on the Wednesday morning
whereas in reality it rose dramatically on the Tuesday because of a bullish announcement
on the Tuesday morning, maybe as a result of drill success. Not always the case--but generally so.

In most cases the professionals knew an announcement had to be made about a drilling
proramme result and got set weeks before, and seized the resultant announcement leap
to cash in--"Buy the rumour--Sell the fact"

Very interesting watching if you have live data at both ends of the day.

Buying at the open or in the first hour of trading CAN be very dangerous, its
illuminating to watch several massive buy orders suddenly get pulled just
before trading starts, but of course he was in fact an actual Seller!!!



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Combining Fundamental comments with Fundamental charts.
 
arty
post Posted: Jun 14 2009, 12:36 PM
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Have you ever wondered about ridiculously high bids or low offers just before market open?

If so, you're not alone. Here is how it works:

In the morning

Everybody will be aware that trading on the ASX commences at 10AM in five groups, staggered about 2 minutes apart. Codes beginning with A and B start trading at 10:00 AM, plus or minus 15 seconds; C, D, E, and F follow at 10:02:15, plus or minus 15 seconds, etc to letters S to Z at 10:09, plus or minus 15 seconds.
Exact details at http://www.asx.com.au/resources/education/...g_hours_asx.htm

Right up to the start, high bids and low offers can overlap by huge amounts, and if you watch live market depth, you can become dizzy by the flurry of bids and offers being changed at break-neck speeds. Then with a bang, it all evens out, and trading starts with scores of individual trades matched out, all at the same second and the same price. More amazingly, the opening price is usually close to the "normal" price you'd expect.

Welcome to the Pre-Open Market Auction. Brokers and online traders can place their bids and offers straight into the ASX. When the Trading Proper commences, overlapping bids and offers are "matched-out" at a price, where the balance of bids and offers meet. As it's all done by computer, it happens in an instant; the method is pretty straight-forward:
The highest bid is matched against the lowest offer or offers - at this stage, the price is still open; the next highest bid is then matched against the remaining low offers, etc. At one stage, there is no overlap left. And at this stage, the match-out price for every opening transaction is determined, as either the lowest offer still left unfilled or the highest bid that's only partially filled.
Sounds complicated? If your data provider shows an item named "match-out" or "indicative average open" - look no further. During pre-open, this value is automatically re-calculated every time a bid or offer changes. Therefore, Brokers and online Traders know at all times, at which price the share will open.
Assuming I wanted to pick up some AMP, and I see match-out is $5.03, a bid of $5.05 is as good as one at $7.00 to guarantee me an entry at $5.03. But: if a would-be seller sees my bid, he may quickly pull or slightly adjust a low offer, so the match-out rises to $5.06. That would mean my $5.05 bid will remain unfilled, and my $7.00 may be filled at a higher price than I really intended to pay. If there's still enough time, I can pull my $7.00 bid, which may bring the average back to $5.04, or I raise from $5.05 to $5.10 and watch what happens.

In the afternoon

On the stroke of the hour, all trading stops at 4:00:00 PM (unless it's Christmas Eve or some similar exception). For ten more minutes, the entire market is put in Pre-Open, where the same rules apply: Overlapping bids and offers can be placed, pulled, adjusted, and the match-out price is determined as described above. Sometime after 4:10 PM, overlaps are matched out, and the result is the Closing Price. Again, bids and offers can widely and wildly change - it's not unlike a Poker game with bluff and counter bluff; in the end, the stronger nerves (or hand) will prevail.

"Trading Resumes at xx:xx"

After a Trading Halt, Suspension, or release of a Market-Sensitive announcement, a particular share will enter a state of Pre-Open.
The difference between a Trading Halt and Suspension - for all trading intents and purposes - lies in the duration and what happens to pre-existing bids and offers. When a suspension is lifted, the market depth is wiped clean and all bids and offers have to be placed anew, based on traders' perception of the new situation that led to the share being re-installed. A trading halt can last no longer than two days, during which bids and offers remain accessible and can be added, pulled, or changed. Even shorter is the period of pre-open when a price-sensitive announcement is made. The normal time ASX gives us to digest a new item is about 10 minutes. Examples are successful drilling that intersected pay dirt; a new big order; a profit upgrade or downgrade... The sequence of events is - 1. "Notice Received", which immediately halts all trading; 2. pre-announcing the announcement header; 3. the actual full body of the announcement; immediately followed by 4. the "Trading Resumes at xx:xx" message.
Between 1 and the time mentioned in 4, I have time to assess the situation and consider my position: add, pull, change, or leave any orders. Most importantly, I can watch what other participants are doing, and how their reaction would look on the chart.



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I trade daily, but I am not a licensed adviser. Whether you find my ideas reasonable or not: The only person responsible for your actions is YOU.
I follow two rules: (1) There are no sacred truths. All assumptions must be critically examined. Arguments from authority are worthless. (2) Whatever is inconsistent with observed facts must be discarded or revised. We must understand the Market as it is and not confuse how it is with how we wish it to be. (inspired by Carl Sagan)
 
BSA
post Posted: Feb 5 2008, 03:05 PM
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In reply to: pixies on Tuesday 05/02/08 02:03pm

All is well with the world Pixies biggrin.gif



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