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In reply to: sarah on Sunday 25/11/07 09:31am

Sarah, good point about silver bulls buying the real thing. I've taken delivery of mine and stored it locally rather than leave it at the Perth Mint.

 

I've been treating MMN as a leveraged silver play and just trading in and out based on the long term movements of the physical market.

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In reply to: neilb on Sunday 25/11/07 10:28am

QUOTE
... good point about silver bulls buying the real thing. I've taken delivery of mine and stored it locally rather than leave it at the Perth Mint.

Not sure of the benefits of buying physical PM, but it all depends on the long-term intention of having silver.

 

With the physical Ag you have storage cost, insurance and also pay a premium to pay for the manufacturing. None of these cost apply to the certificate program.

 

Of course, with a physical brick of Ag you do have the benefit of a shining doorstop.

All I have is a certificate to prove that I have Government backing for my unallocated silver at Perth Mint.

 

My Ag was bought a few years ago when it was around US$4.50/oz approx 5 years ago. The return is not that fantastic. The investment was mainly for diversification purposes, a belief the Ag will go up and could also work as a hedge in the case of a major stockmarket correction.

 

Could be all wrong ÃÆâ€â„¢ÃƒÆ’ƒâہ¡ÃƒÆ’‚¢ÃƒÆ’¢Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢â€š¬Ã…¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¬ÃƒÆ’…¡Ãƒâہ¡ÃƒÆ’‚¬ÃƒÆ’¢Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚¬Ãƒâ€¦Ã‚¡ÃƒÆ’‚¬Ãƒâ€Â¦ÃƒÆ’¢Ã¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚¬Ãƒâ€¦Ã¢â‚¬Å“ but out of sight out of mind. So far so good.

 

Good luck with yours.

 

As for MMN, I am not invested in the stock. After years of being a shareholder I sold out and will no longer invest in companies which are populated by any of the current Macmin directors. Lack of faith and trust in that mob.

 

 

 

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In reply to: sarah on Sunday 25/11/07 11:08am

Ted Butler's writings were what originally got me into silver. The reason I took delivery of the bars was because of one of his articles. He has long believed that some bullion storage facilities have been lying to their customers, claiming to store metal that didn't actually exist.

 

This was recently proven to be true in a court case with Morgan Stanley.

 

Money For Nothing

 

I haven't heard of anything bad about Perth Mint, I'd just rather not take the chance. Mind you, I don't have a lot, a bit over 1,000 oz,, so it's quite easy to store.

 

I purchased it as "insurance" (back when silver was about AU$8/oz) in case I got too cute trading stocks like MMN and found myself out of the market during Ted's oft discussed price explosion http://www.sharescene.com/html/emoticons/tongue.gif

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In reply to: sarah on Sunday 25/11/07 11:08am

Thanks sarah, and others for helpful hints.

I think I've been pretty well warned against MMN but will continue research, particularly looking for a miner for whom Ag is a meaningful by-product. Not yet ready to consider physical Ag but who knows?

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In reply to: neilb on Sunday 25/11/07 12:17pm

QUOTE
The reason I took delivery of the bars was because of one of his articles. He has long believed that some bullion storage facilities have been lying to their customers, claiming to store metal that didn't actually exist. This was recently proven to be true in a court case with Morgan Stanley.

 

Yes, there have been some horror stories. However, with government backing of Perth Mint I am not too worried.

 

 

 

QUOTE
The Perth Mint issues a Certificate to you confirming your purchase, which is stored at the Mint on your behalf.

The Perth Mint Certificate gives you legal title to precious metals held by The Perth Mint on either a segregated (allocated) or unsegregated (unallocated) basis.

The Certificate is in your name and identified by a Certificate number.

The PMCP is also the only Government Guaranteed certificate program in the world, making it one of the safest ways to own precious metals.

 

 

 

 

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In reply to: sarah on Sunday 25/11/07 03:38pm

 

I put this on another thread a couple of months ago.

 

 

The Perth Mint holdings are guaranteed by the W.A. Government, but only as a cash equivalent.

 

This is because

 

"a government's power to tax can only be in terms of money, therefore its obligations have to be expressed in monetary terms. Should the Government Guarantee need to be activated, The Perth Mint will immediately purchase on the open market the required amount of precious metal needed to meet its obligations and then request funds from the Government to pay for the purchase (in other word, request the "cash equivalent" of the precious metal due). In this way cash is converted into physical metal so that The Perth Mint can meet its legal delivery obligations under the PMCP or PMDS agreements"

 

This seems at odds with

 

"With unallocated storage clients purchase an interest in a pool of precious metal held by The Perth Mint. The Mint purchases an ounce of precious metal from the spot market for every unallocated ounce it sells to clients. Accordingly every unallocated ounce is 100% backed".

 

However,

 

In order for The Perth Mint to utilise a client's unallocated metal, the PMDS and PMCP client agreements are structured so that a client permits The Perth Mint to use the client's unallocated metal "for its own account as if it were the owner. As this usage provides a small commercial benefit to the Mint, it is able to offer a fee-free storage and provide simpler transaction procedures that many clients find attractive".

 

although,

 

"The Western Australian Government imposes strict guidelines on The Perth Mint's management. The Perth Mint is not a bullion bank and does not provide project financing or bullion lending/derivative services to mining companies or other entities. It does not lend client's unallocated metal to support short selling transactions or other derivative activities. The unallocated metal is utilised solely to fund the Mint's operations".

 

 

I like this bit the best.

 

 

"Clients worried about potential delays in collecting metal in extreme circumstances, but with concerns about the cost of allocated storage, usually take a staged approach:

 

1. While the world environment is benign, they hold unallocated. They do not incur ongoing storage costs and fabrication charges.

2. When the environment becomes uncertain and risky, they convert to allocated.

3. When the world is at a crisis point, they take delivery of their physical metal".

 

Stage 2 at the moment ?

 

Regards,

Monteverdi.

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In reply to: sarah on Sunday 25/11/07 02:38pm

Perth Mint leases metal to AGR Matthey, presumably from their unallocated storage customers since they say on their website that they treat unallocated storage as an asset. AGR Matthey say on their website that they are in the business of leasing too, and presumably they are in turn leasing the metal that they get from the Perth Mint to others.

 

If a silver shortage suddenly became a big issue, Perth Mint might be unable to get their leased metal back, and in that situation, their unallocated customers could be forced into receiving a cash payout equivalent to having sold the metal. Meanwhile silver may go onto new highs leaving those former unallocated storage holders behind http://www.sharescene.com/html/emoticons/puke.gif

 

I decided it was better for me to hold my metal, just in case.

 

I haven't contacted Perth Mint or AGR Matthey. This is merely my take on what could unfold, based on the articles of Ted Butler, and the information on the company websites.

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In reply to: woteva on Monday 17/12/07 05:01pm

woteva: Agree with you that silver is likely to rally. I am not involved with MMN. But I have read on several occasions that MMN's management is substandard and I do not like to invest in companies with poor management.... Are there no better alternatives for exposure to silver (on other exchanges, possibly) ?? Just curious.

wasa

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